Posts by THE GLADIATOR

245

Is the Watchtower shy about repeating their new "generation" teaching?

by slimboyfat in

jw
friends

as i recall in the 1980s talks and watchtower literature, magazines and books were always talking about the "generation" teaching and how it proved armageddon was going to come any day now.. but am i correct in thinking they have only actually mentioned the new "overlapping generations" teaching once or twice in the literature?

why are they so shy about talking about their great new interpretation?

it's almost enough to make you suspect they are a embarrassed about it.. mention it once or twice, don't dwell on it, hope everyone just accepts it, and don't bring it up again.

THE GLADIATOR

“I would really like to see a citation to the effect that 1935 was no longer considered to be "the cut off date" for those with the heavenly calling (the anointed) to be called as such.”

djeggnog You obviously did not read the quotes I posted earlier for you. I know it’s not Christmas but I’ll post them again for you:

The Society had always insisted that the 144,000 chosen to rule in heaven with Jesus as kings and priests were chosen by 1935, before the heavenly calling was closed. Yet, in 1995 they repeated this claim:

Logically, the calling of the little flock would draw to a close when the number was nearing completion, and the evidence is that the general gathering of these specially blessed ones ended in 1935.

The Watchtower 15 February 1995 - page 19

This is important because one of the Society’s main teachings was that the end would come during the lifetime of the generation that was alive in 1914 and would include members of the 144,000 heavenly calling, also called, ‘the little flock.’ In 2007 this teaching was significantly altered:

Hence especially after 1966 it was believed that the heavenly calling ceased in 1935. Thereafter, any called to the heavenly hope were believed to be replacements for anointed Christians who had proved unfaithful. Thus it appears that we can not set a specific date for when the calling of Christians to the heavenly hope ends.

The Watchtower 1 May 2007 - pages 30-31

11

Your own personal Jesus

by Stealth in

jw
friends

interesting article on liberal christains vs conservative christains view of jesus.

if jesus is anything like the governing body of jehovah's witnesses, i don't want anything to do with him.

my jesus is a rebel!.

THE GLADIATOR

This hippie was not a stupid man and was taking me too close to the flame, but I liked his easy manner and intelligence and wanted to play along. ‘I am not sure I do love Jesus. But as you said, it is fear that keeps most of us in line.’

‘You’re remarkably honest for a Jehovah’s Witness.’

‘It is nice to talk with someone and be able to say what I really feel for a change.’

‘Do your congregation Servants know how you feel?’

I ignored his question and continued with the line of thought we had started. ‘We are supposed to love this God and fear him at the same time. I find myself unable to do both, so fear will have to do.’ The hippie laughed heartily. It seemed he was happy with the progress we were making. ‘I felt just like you, so I left the whole caboodle.’

‘So how do you live with the fear?’ I asked, encouraging him to share more of his gentle wisdom with me.

‘Easy. I am not afraid any more.’ He lit and puffed on another strangely-shaped cigarette that he had just rolled and looked at me thoughtfully before he carried on. ‘They have told you a lot of fibs about Jesus. Jesus is love, peace, harmony. He is whatever you want him to be. He is everywhere man, you just have to look around.’

I looked around the room and concluded that his Jesus liked colour. The fallout from his strangely shaped cigarette had relaxed me and I was beginning to like his Jesus more than mine.

(From There's Something Wrong With THAT BOY! By Trevor Willis)

7

UNPACKING the language that Traps

by Terry in

"you must be holy because jehovah is holy", the watchtower, february 15, 1976. page 124, "would not a failure to respond to direction from god through his organization really indicate a rejection of divine rulership?".

the above quoted watchtower article came the year after the failure of 1975 on every level.. not only was the worldwide publicity connected with 1975 totally embarassing to jehovah's name and organization it was the 2nd time the error.

had been made!

THE GLADIATOR

Terry

It must be disappointing to start a sensible thread and find that 3 hours later, no one has responded.

Perhaps talking gibberish would get you more attention.

Good point though - the leaders of the Watchtower organization presume to speak for God, who ever that is, but they speak only for themselves.

245

Is the Watchtower shy about repeating their new "generation" teaching?

by slimboyfat in

jw
friends

as i recall in the 1980s talks and watchtower literature, magazines and books were always talking about the "generation" teaching and how it proved armageddon was going to come any day now.. but am i correct in thinking they have only actually mentioned the new "overlapping generations" teaching once or twice in the literature?

why are they so shy about talking about their great new interpretation?

it's almost enough to make you suspect they are a embarrassed about it.. mention it once or twice, don't dwell on it, hope everyone just accepts it, and don't bring it up again.

THE GLADIATOR

Overlapping Generations

The Society had always insisted that the 144,000 chosen to rule in heaven with Jesus as kings and priests were chosen by 1935, before the heavenly calling was closed. Yet, in 1995 they repeated this claim:

Logically, the calling of the little flock would draw to a close when the number was nearing completion, and the evidence is that the general gathering of these specially blessed ones ended in 1935.

The Watchtower 15 February 1995 - page 19

This is important because one of the Society’s main teachings was that the end would come during the lifetime of the generation that was alive in 1914 and would include members of the 144,000 heavenly calling, also called, ‘the little flock.’ In 2007 this teaching was significantly altered:

Hence especially after 1966 it was believed that the heavenly calling ceased in 1935. Thereafter, any called to the heavenly hope were believed to be replacements for anointed Christians who had proved unfaithful. Thus it appears that we can not set a specific date for when the calling of Christians to the heavenly hope ends.

The Watchtower 1 May 2007 - pages 30-31

That generation had now long since passed away and the Society had to paper over the gaps in their prediction. They issued many statements in an attempt to deflect the attention for their failed prophecies away from themselves and onto the membership:

Finally, we might consider what the Society has published in the past on chronology. Some opposers claim that Jehovah's Witnesses are false prophets. These opponents say that dates have been set, but nothing has happened. Again we ask, what is the motive of these critics? Are they encouraging wakefulness on the part of God's people, or are they, rather, trying to justify themselves for falling back into sleepy inactivity?

The Watchtower 15 March - page 18

The Society were now saying that 1935 was no longer the cut off date for members of the 144,000. This change paved the way for their planned change in the meaning of a generation. In 2008 the Society continued to explain away more of this cornerstone belief. Until now they had taught that ‘this generation’ referred to wicked unbelieving Jews. They had carried this idea forward and given it a modern-day fulfilment, applying it to ‘the wicked ‘generation of unbelievers’ in our own time who would see the end of the system of things. They explained that the apostles would no doubt have understood that they and their fellow disciples were to be part of the generation that would not pass away until all these things occur. Referring to themselves as ‘the modern-day John class,’ they announced:

On the other hand, Christ's faithful anointed brothers, the modern-day John class, have recognized this sign as if it were a flash of lightning and have understood its true meaning. As a class, these anointed ones make up ‘the modern-day generation’ of contemporaries that will not pass away ‘until all these things occur.’ This suggests that some who are Christ's anointed brothers will still be alive on earth when the foretold great tribulation begins.

The Watchtower 15 February 2008 - pages 23-24

This generation no longer just referred to wicked unbelievers but to anointed believers. In the 2010 further changes were made under the heading, ‘Holy Spirit’s Role in the Outworking of Jehovah’s Purpose:

Third, holy spirit is at work in bringing Bible truths to light. (Prov. 4:18) This magazine has long been used by ’the faithful and discreet slave’ as the primary channel for dispensing increased light. (Matt.24:45) For example, consider our understanding of those who make up ‘this generation’ mentioned by Jesus. (Read Matthew 24:32-34.) To what generation did Jesus refer? The article ‘Christ’s Presence— What Does It Mean to You?’ explained that Jesus was referring, not to the wicked, but to his disciples, who were soon to be anointed with holy spirit. Jesus’ anointed followers, both in the first century and in our day, would be the ones who would not only see the sign but also discern its meaning —that Jesus ‘is near at the doors. What does this explanation mean to us? Although we cannot measure the exact length of ‘this generation,’ we do well to keep in mind several things about the word ‘generation’: It usually refers to people of varying ages whose lives overlap during a particular time period; it is not excessively long; and it has an end. (Ex. 1:6) How, then, are we to understand Jesus’ words about ‘this generation’? He evidently meant that the lives of the anointed who were on hand when the sign began to become evident in 1914 would overlap with the lives of other anointed ones who would see the start of the great tribulation. That generation had a beginning, and it surely will have an end. The fulfillment of the various features of the sign clearly indicate that the tribulation must be near. By maintaining your sense of urgency and keeping on the watch, you show that you are keeping up with advancing light and following the leadings of holy spirit.

The Watchtower 2010 Apr 15 - page 10

The Society had introduced the idea of an ‘overlapping generations model.’ This is a concept in which if people’s lives overlap into the next generation's lives they can be considered to be one generation. It’s a bit like playing tag! They stated:

We do not know the exact length of ‘this generation,’ but it includes these two groups whose lives overlap. Even though the anointed vary in age, those in the two groups constituting the generation are contemporaries during the part of the last days. How comforting it is to know that the younger anointed contemporaries of those older anointed ones who discerned the sign when it became evident beginning in 1914 will not die off before the great tribulation starts!

The Watchtower 15 June 2010 - page 5

The cornerstone teaching that had, for more than a hundred years, predicted the end of the present world within the lifetime of those who witnessed the 1914 world war was now obsolete. The generation with the earthly hope had expected to live long enough to enter the new world and cheat death. Those belonging to the ‘little flock’ with a heavenly calling had been promised they would receive their reward within their lifetime. Beaten by the passage of time the Watchtower Society had been forced to move the date for the battle of Armageddon on - indefinitely. Now they were to be comforted by knowing that their younger anointed contemporaries, or the overlapping contemporaries that followed, would enjoy this privilege.

I have done my best to explain these changes clearly and as simply as possible, including as few quotes as possible to accurately show the change that has taken place. If you are confused, then you are not alone. Many members of the Watchtower Society are still trying to make sense of the new flash of light that has moved the goalpost even further away. Instead or Armageddon being ‘just around the corner’ it has been put on hold indefinitely.

Taken from the book Can Jehovah's Witnesses SURVIVE? By Trevor Willis.

25

Have you written any poetry? Want to share it?

by Lozhasleft in

jw
friends

its ages since we had a poetry thread...feel free to share your literary compositions here....... loz x.

THE GLADIATOR

Fantasy

The pianist’s hands like shadows,

Flash across the keys,

Merging black and white together,

Until the keyboard turns to grey.

Writhing to the rhythm,

Forever gaining speed,

With a mind all of their own,

Telling of an urgent need.

Notes and unseen chords,

Are translated by the dancer.

She moves as in response

To a question, she the answer.

Passing stools and tables,

Gliding, soaring, bursting,

In a web of silver footwork,

Like an insect fighting to be free.

The rush and the momentum,

Climb to a crescendo.

Now the pianist’s eyes half close,

As he strains to match the pace,

No longer telling them a story,

But competing in a race.

Colour, sound and motion,

Unite to conquer time and space.

All eyes are held upon her,

As she challenges onlookers,

To tear their gaze away.

Leading now the frantic music,

In a dance that’s all her own,

She engages and controls the floor,

But you quietly turn away,

Because you’ve seen it all before.

There is no point in shouting,

Above the deafening roar,

They will never hear you,

Their ears and eyes enraptured,

By the fantasy explained,

In a dance as yet unnamed.

A pounding, haunting inspiration,

Of a lost enchanted strain.

Suddenly the dancer stops,

And bows her lovely head.

Spectators slowly move away,

They drag their weary feet,

As though at end of day.

Piano lid is closed as if now fed.

Not a single word is spoken,

Hush – hush – its all been said.

A gentle silence fills the room,

Like the sound of steady rain,

As you gaze upon the stillness,

And your mind is quiet again.

Could it have been imagined,

All you thought you’d seen?

It’s impossible to explain,

If asked where you have been.

28

1914+100 Years

by Conan The Barbarian in

i have been reading things for a while.

in approximately 20 months it will be the year 2014. that year will be 1914+100 years.

i don't know how the wts is going to get around that if the "present system" is still in existence.

THE GLADIATOR

Conan The Barbarian That's a very fancy title but it takes more than that to scare a real gladiator. Welcome to the forum.

"I expect a serious decline in membership, at least in the western world."

I see the logic but most Jehovah's Witnesses take 10 years to change direction. Most will hang on to their life raft and hope to god that it all works out - in the end.

Beware of false prophets, men who come to you dressed up as sheep while underneath they are savage wolves. You will recognise them by the fruits they bear. Matthew 7:15, 16 – The New English Bible

14

Did Jesus know his father?

by nicolaou in

assuming the historicity of jesus, and i do, i wonder how well he knew his real father, whether it was joseph, pantera or another man.

because he must have existed for jesus to have been born - you know, the sweet meeting of sperm & egg .

it appears though that no factual information can be gleaned from the bible or other sources about this but of course that hasn't prevented much speculation.. if, as seems likely, jesus father was absent what effect would that have had on the young child?

THE GLADIATOR

You guys are taking this too seriously.

All these questions will be answered when God brings out a sequel to his first and only book, which turned out to be a best seller. Not surprising really; you would expect God to have useful connections in the publishing world.

God takes his time because all time is his to take and he is eternal. Why burn the midnight oil or get up early to rush out a sequel. The whole Jesus story will turn out to be a dream, which explains why there are talking animals in the Bible. Mary will wake up and have a real baby with her husband, which is the normal Jewish tradition. The sequel will contain more poetry and be entitled Jesus in Wonderland.

140

Blame the designer and not the product: God and the lame Free Will argument

by Terry in

this is the one thing nobody is ever able to explain to me!.

if a genius designs something to operate in a specific way in order to obtain a precise outcome and it doesn't work---tell me again why we don't blame the genius designer/manufacturer??.

oh--that free will maguffin!.

THE GLADIATOR

Hi N.drew

After careful consideration I have chosen to reply to you and throw in my thread of homespun wisdom. It it is probably just an instinctive reaction :)

All mammals share many traits. A dog will usually choose when to cross a road. If it is excited and forgets to think, its lack of judgement can be fatal. Horses are also highly intelligent animals that are known to make choices.

Many decisions are instinctive survival reactions, but that also applies to humans. We can also make rash decisions and not look before we leap. Just like humans a trained animal shows a greater ability to make better choices.

140

Blame the designer and not the product: God and the lame Free Will argument

by Terry in

this is the one thing nobody is ever able to explain to me!.

if a genius designs something to operate in a specific way in order to obtain a precise outcome and it doesn't work---tell me again why we don't blame the genius designer/manufacturer??.

oh--that free will maguffin!.

THE GLADIATOR

This debate illustrates the difficulties that arise when we start from a wrong premise and then try to make it fit our viewpoint. If a being called God, planned and created all living things, then there are serious contradictions in the free will argument.

If we accept that humans have evolved, just alike all other living creatures, our world makes sense. All creatures continually make choices. Humans have developed consciousness to a level that allows us to make choises that go beyond just surviving.

Sometimes we exercise free will and sometimes we act out of necessity, making the most expedient and obvious choice. Sometimes we are able to exercise free will and sometimes we cannot. The results of those choices are seen throughout the world and form our history. I fail to see where a mythical God fits into such an obvious need driven pattern.

17

Another prayer answered

by StopTheTears in

jw
friends

i have been asking god for a new living arrangement, and he dropped the place in my being.

it's pending and i will update.

i am still praying and thanking him.. .

THE GLADIATOR

This highlights the problem with having only one god.

I have over 300 gods and this is reflected in th e generous deposits to my bank account.